tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post7628739050224812557..comments2023-10-19T08:49:35.405-05:00Comments on Aún Estamos Vivos: Is Christian Rock an Oxymoron?Jeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-23505816878359979712007-08-10T12:41:00.000-05:002007-08-10T12:41:00.000-05:00Jeff,Wow, so Keith Green wound up as some kind of ...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>Wow, so Keith Green wound up as some kind of Jack Chick? How utterly sad. I didn't know any of that.<BR/><BR/>I personally didn't regard him as saintly - I meant that others seemed to regard him that way. Early death always helps.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-68874320390803947352007-08-10T10:46:00.000-05:002007-08-10T10:46:00.000-05:00Hi William,I hope the move went well, with as litt...Hi William,<BR/><BR/>I hope the move went well, with as little disruption as could reasonably be expected. <BR/><BR/>So, Daniel Amos was sort of like a Moby Grape kind of thing?<BR/><BR/>I don’t know if Keith Green would have liked you referring to him as saintly. You’ve never heard of his <I>Catholic Chronicles</I>? Apparently, he fancied himself as some kind of theologian. My problem with him was <A HREF="http://www.informationgospel.net/the_chronicles_of_catholic.htm" REL="nofollow">that tiresome crap</A>.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I’ve heard people rave about Keaggy. From what little I’ve heard, he sounded like someone you’d more rightly compare with Al DiMeola than Jimi Hendrix.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-38123805790903611092007-08-09T08:34:00.000-05:002007-08-09T08:34:00.000-05:00Jeff,I got caught up in my whirlwind and never got...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I got caught up in my whirlwind and never got to finish this conversation.<BR/><BR/>Daniel Amos, like Pink Floyd, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Jethro Tull, etc. is a <I>them</I> not a <I>him</I>. Just the names of two prophets put together, i believe. And, no, there's no real reason you should've heard of them. They were too weird (read: interesting) for the normal Christian rock world, i.e. they sang about Blake and Kierkegaard and Chesterton. Not really what the Amy Grant crowd wanted to hear. They did fairly well, though, I suppose - had dedicated fans that supported them.<BR/><BR/><I>Keith Green... I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but he was a horrid man...</I><BR/><BR/>Wow, that shocked me. I was listening to Keith Green right around the time he died, and he seemed to be regarded in an almost saintly fashion then. Granted, I've been out of the loop for a long time - did something come up in the intervening years that I don't know about? Or was there always another side that I never heard about? I'm incredibly curious.<BR/><BR/>Yeah, I had some friends who really liked Phil Keaggy. And I still see his name crop up on some lists of great guitarists. I never clicked with him. I mean, people would mention him in the same breath as Hendrix. I never got it. I mean, we're talking about Jimi. Keaggy may be able to play the guitar pretty well, but the overall package - vocals, songwriting, atmosphere, artistic depth, etc. - wassn't even in the same ballpark. Hell, it wasn't even the same game.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-51001069244232912192007-07-28T17:38:00.000-05:002007-07-28T17:38:00.000-05:00Hi Jeff,Yeah, my wife agrees age and frame of refr...Hi Jeff,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, my wife agrees age and frame of refrence have an awful lot to do with what is 'cool'. But that depends of course if you define cool as something subjective, like taste, or if cool is a particular stage or brand of broad-society taste that makes people even have the desire to watch a reality show featuring Victoria Beckham. In other words, Victoria Beckham is always, everywhere, and objectively cooler than Erkle. Led Zeplin is always, everywhere, and objectively cooler than Stryper.<BR/><BR/>So I figure I could hire a bunch of really good looking 20 year olds, lay down a really mean driving rythm, and maybe crankout some vicious lyrics about Pontius Pilate whipping people and it could sound cool. Really hot chicks in skimpy outfits could writhe around singing the chorus while a heavily tattood muscular dude ground out the lyrics. <BR/><BR/>So I figure Christian rock is probably an oxymoron because by the time we finished making it cool it wouldn't really be Christian anymore. You need a little brimstone for such things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-81692008480730576552007-07-28T10:23:00.000-05:002007-07-28T10:23:00.000-05:00Hi Liam,Leonard Cohen and Nick Cave are worth chec...Hi Liam,<BR/><BR/>Leonard Cohen and Nick Cave are worth checking out? I've got a lot of listening to do, I've been out of it for too long. Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard some Nick Cave that Crystal has posted. Very powerful.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-10760535733678454712007-07-28T10:17:00.000-05:002007-07-28T10:17:00.000-05:00Hi Garpu,As a musician, I'd like to hear what kind...Hi Garpu,<BR/><BR/>As a musician, I'd like to hear what kind of religious music you're partial to. :-)Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-36677965328016185072007-07-28T10:14:00.000-05:002007-07-28T10:14:00.000-05:00B.,Ha! Yes, interesting that we both sort of touc...B.,<BR/><BR/>Ha! Yes, interesting that we both sort of touched on the topic at the same time.<BR/><BR/>Is cool=evil in that it rejects good authority? Always? I'll have to think about that one for a while. I don't think it's good for <I>any</I> authority to go unchallenged forever. I'm not one for smashing all authority, there are times when authority and order are most definitely needed (that's why I don't want to <I>smash</I> authority), but I think that there should always be ways to challenge it too. Authority needs to be reminded that it is there to serve rather than to be served. I like checks and balances. Maybe that's why each and every generation needs to challenge the status quo by rebelling in their own particular way. In a way, that's a healthy thing.<BR/><BR/>I hear what you are saying. I have to take my age into account. Some of the stuff seems so far gone now, I can see the attraction to Christian music by people who've had enough.... I suppose it's good that someone is singing about something other than bling, booze, misogeny, and getting laid. Maybe this is a form of rebellion in itself. Still, I find the mixing of mediums to be strange, and it sort of cheapens both. It doesn't work as well as Gospel Music in my opinion.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-37848995455051892982007-07-28T10:03:00.000-05:002007-07-28T10:03:00.000-05:00Crystal,That Taize community is fascinating. Paul...Crystal,<BR/><BR/>That Taize community is fascinating. Paula posts about them a lot. I need to learn a bit more about them.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-90133247332697855912007-07-28T10:02:00.000-05:002007-07-28T10:02:00.000-05:00Hi William,Sorry to hear that you're moving, but I...Hi William,<BR/><BR/>Sorry to hear that you're moving, but I hope you're moving to a better place, at least. Moving is never fun.<BR/><BR/>What brought up the topic? I just happened to be reading <I>America</I> and came across that article by Nantais. Also, I sometimes listen to the local Christian radio stations during drive time from and to work. I hear the Jars of Clay being mentioned a lot, so I was a bit curious about them, and listened to a few clips on Youtube. I was familiar with dc Talk because their 'Jesus Freak' books could be seen everywhere a few years back. <BR/><BR/>Joy Division! Wow, that brings me back a bit. :-)<BR/><BR/>Daniel Amos sounds really familiar to me. Should I know him from secular music somehow? Keith Green... I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but he was a horrid man... <BR/><BR/>I think that John Michael Talbot<BR/>came out of that same late sixties Jesus movement that you describe. Bruce Cockburn was very good, I agree. Some evangelicals I've known are very fond of the religious music of Phil Keaggy and Tom Rush. I always liked Tom Rush.<BR/><BR/>I miss social activism in music. A lot of people think that the sixties songs that I like are corny, but there really was a time for a while when people were sincerely singing about peace, and brotherhood, and justice... all before everything fell apart in drugs and cynicism and commercialism. I'd like to see a sort of return to that, with eyes a little bit more open this time. John Mayer has a great song about "Waiting for the World to Change", but it could be better. Don't wait! Make it change. <BR/><BR/>There's a way to do that, I believe, in embracing fullness of life, and looking for what is good in other people and inherent in the world. Have life and have it more abundantly. Like yourself, I guess I resist the notion that total self-separation is what is needed. A separation that seems to sing "Our God is an awesome God... but <I>everything</I> else is crap."Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-20183229003952400232007-07-27T17:27:00.000-05:002007-07-27T17:27:00.000-05:00My conclusion is that you need a little brimstone ...My conclusion is that you need a little brimstone to be cool in the adolescent sense really required for good rock & roll. Somehow Jesus just makes things a little to square. Don't shoot the messenger. BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-66627416067107538832007-07-27T07:09:00.000-05:002007-07-27T07:09:00.000-05:00I have to admit, I've never really investigated th...I have to admit, I've never really investigated the Christian rock thing, even after I started going back to church. I guess it's because I always associate it with megachurch evangelism, which just doesn't say anything to me either spiritually or aesthetically. <BR/><BR/>I am intrigued by the idea that the difference between Catholic and Protestant concepts of the world's goodness affect this whole issue. There might be something to that.<BR/><BR/>I like a lot of music that approaches Christian and/or Biblical themes but that grapples with their complexity rather than simplifies them to banality. I'm thinking Leonard Cohen's "Song of Isaac" or lots of things by Nick Cave.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-61356164869986629022007-07-26T17:13:00.000-05:002007-07-26T17:13:00.000-05:00I confess that I've never been a fan of "contempor...I confess that I've never been a fan of "contemporary Christian" or Christian rock. I'm also not a fan of it being in Masses, but that's my personal preference. It does bring butts into pews, though.<BR/><BR/>I guess I don't like contemporary Christian/Christian rock because I don't like most contemporary pop. No clue why contemporary Christian is so vapid, but I think it may have something to do with commercialization and its lack of innovation. What's popular sells. What isn't threatening sells. Or I could be reading too much Adorno again.Garpuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09460312942820868366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-43406347769495369372007-07-26T03:43:00.000-05:002007-07-26T03:43:00.000-05:00Ha :-) nope, that's not him. Taize isn't like gr...Ha :-) nope, that's not him. Taize isn't like gregorian chant. On the CD I have, the songsare sung in many different languages. You can hear samples of it <A HREF="http://www.taize.fr/en_article681.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-34592963041724363952007-07-25T22:40:00.000-05:002007-07-25T22:40:00.000-05:00By the way, I'm not sure it's wise - spiritually s...By the way, I'm not sure it's wise - spiritually speaking - to be dissing the great Slim Pickens. Even dead the man could probably kick all of our asses combined.<BR/><BR/>Real cowboys ultimately find a way to bring about cosmic balance. And it ain't always pretty. :-)cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-39748335257927600942007-07-25T22:25:00.000-05:002007-07-25T22:25:00.000-05:00Jeff,Interesting post. I'm curious - what brought...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>Interesting post. I'm curious - what brought up the topic?<BR/><BR/>I went through a period where I investigated "Christian rock" or rock that was "Christian." One day I'm listening to the Sex Pistols and Joy Divison, the next, I'm having a religious experience and trying to sort out my life, which, naturally included music. It wasn't easy for someone like me.<BR/><BR/>Christian rock, to me, ultimately seemed like just another part of the Evangelical Bubble Life. Us versus Them. "Christians" [who think and act like us] against "Non" Christians. Black and white. Totally dualistic. I found that world way too limited and restrictive.<BR/><BR/>But there were some good musicians within Christian rock who seemed like they had a certain artistic integrity, openness, and searching quality that befits any true creative soul. I think of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Norman" REL="nofollow">Larry Norman</A>, the "fahter" of Christian rock, who was already doing stuff in the late 60s and early 70s. He was big into Dylan and it showed. I have fond memories of <I>Only Visiting This Planet</I> and <I>In Another Land</I>. Interestingly, he was also an influence on Frank Black of the Pixies.<BR/><BR/>My favorite "Christian" band was <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Amos" REL="nofollow">Daniel Amos</A>, who also started in the early 70s. (The first phase of Christian rock really came from the 60s hippies - the counterculture Christians - the Jesus movement. So, while production values may not have been quite up to the ultra-slick efforts later on, I think they had a warmth and honesty that vanished as Christian rock became a real market and focused on Pop music.) Anyway, Daniel Amos was into William Blake, T.S. Eliot, Chesterton, Muggeridge, Kierkegaard, Dorothy Sayers, Walker Percy, etc. The Christian intellectuals. They were a pretty cool and interesting band. I especially dug <I>Horrendous Disc</I> and <I>Vox Humana</I>, the latter of which was part of a trilogy or quartette called <I>The Alarma Chronicles.</I> I saw them in concert in Denver and they put on a great show.<BR/><BR/>Randy Stonehill also came out of the hippie thing. And Keith Green, who had a hand in Dylan's conversion. And Resurrection Band, who was doing the heavier stuff -the Christian Zeppelin band! They were part of an interesting social action community in Chicago. And I liked The Altar Boys, who were straight punk. I don't know if any of the people are still playing.<BR/><BR/>Most of these groups were also into social activism - and I soooo desperately needed to hear those voices back then. They weren't your Right Wing Republican Christians. This was the Sojourners crowd. Jim Wallis and all that.<BR/><BR/>And then there were the Christians that my friends and I listened to who were on "secular" labels: Dylan, U2, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_cockburn" REL="nofollow">Bruce Cockburn</A>, and <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Call_%28band%29" REL="nofollow">The Call</A> in particular. I still think Cockburn's albums from the 1970s may be the most beautiful and genuinely spiritual albums of the rock era. Great, great music - he's an excellent songwriter and a way undervalued guitarist, classically trained. Sadly, his later music never seemed to equal the heights of his 70s work.<BR/><BR/>Oh, and Gordon Gano of the Violent Femmes had a this terrific punk-gospel group called Mercy Seat, with an amazing black woman singing. Saw them in Denver, too, in a tiny little club. Never danced so hard in my life. And we got to hang out with him afterwards. Turns out he was the son of a minister. Unfortunately, they only put out one album - but it was a lot of fun.<BR/><BR/>As I said, I got tired of the Evangelical/Christian bubble. Life became huge and beautiful and vibrant again. I guess this is part of what Rausch was talking about. But for a while, those few cool bands meant a lot to me - probably helped keep me sane. I was just thinking recently about looking for some of the Daniel Amos albums again. They were good - Christian or not. Unlike Stryper, who would've sucked no matter what their beliefs were.<BR/><BR/>Now, like you, perhaps, I find spiritual truth here and there among musicians who were/are trying to capture what it means to be fully alive, to be genuinely human, who know full well what it means to be desperately in need of love, mercy, grace and forgiveness.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-21665890547834236582007-07-25T21:48:00.000-05:002007-07-25T21:48:00.000-05:00Jeff, Dr. Strangelove, one of my all time favorite...Jeff, Dr. Strangelove, one of my all time favorite movies. I listed it once on one of my early blogs. I used Pickens' name because I couldn't think of any other corny song writer. But seriously, I don't want to sound like B16 in a bad mood, but in all fields that call for judgments we must have standards. No standards left today in the arts[ pure relativism} and we're moving there in ethics I'm afraid. Then what?Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02362724995392108962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-17365004308193020932007-07-25T21:45:00.000-05:002007-07-25T21:45:00.000-05:00We must be pondering similar things today though o...We must be pondering similar things today though our outcomes are far different. I love the Don quote. <BR/><BR/>All the Best, BAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-48244352627848882412007-07-25T21:22:00.000-05:002007-07-25T21:22:00.000-05:00Hi James,Thanks for the link. I checked out their...Hi James,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link. I checked out their official site. I wonder if they still market themselves as a Christian band... They seem more low key about it than some of these other ones.<BR/><BR/>Steve,<BR/><BR/>Ha! It <I>is</I> getting a little bit late tonight to get into politics, isn't it? You bring up Los Lonely Boys. To me, they are a very good example of a secular band that brings spiritual elements into play very well. Enya was another, but I'm showing my admitted Catholic bias again.<BR/><BR/>Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Taize. I've always been curious. Do they do Gregorian Chant, or something different? I'm sure they musn't be into rock. Is this the <A HREF="http://www.markrobertsmusic.com/listen.htm" REL="nofollow">Mark Roberts</A> you mean? Quite nice. :-)<BR/><BR/>Jack,<BR/><BR/>Well, there certainly is something to be said for stuff that holds up over time, although I do prefer Slim Pickens more as an actor of timeless quality (Dr. Strangelove) than as a singer.<BR/>BTW, I promise I won't bring up "On Eagle's Wings" again. ;-)Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-17599155614259297092007-07-25T20:48:00.000-05:002007-07-25T20:48:00.000-05:00Religion , as I have written so many times,deals t...Religion , as I have written so many times,deals to a great extent with standards. The old relativist bosh "I think chocolate pie is great, you think cow patties are great; so what's the difference. My opinion is as good as yours" This is what we are discussing.While we do not have absolute standards we do have standards!! That which lasts because it appeals to what is common to most people is what we call great. Universality it's called. I like Bach, you like Slim Pickens. Is my opinion better than yours? Hell, yes. 500 years from now people will be inspired by Bach and slim pickendswill be what you get at a bad dinner!!<BR/><BR/>Please list 20 christian rock pieces from 15 years ago that are still widely heard and I'll list 500 pieces from 250 years ago that we still hear and love if our ears and souls have not been ruined by 'crap'.<BR/><BR/>Frankly to put it simply something last because it touches us deeply. And we call that GREAT.<BR/><BR/>OOOh, cured my indigestion!!! Thanks Jeff Jack, still in there.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02362724995392108962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-7690303946126703832007-07-25T17:23:00.000-05:002007-07-25T17:23:00.000-05:00I don't have much chritian music ... some carols, ...I don't have much chritian music ... some carols, a Taize CD, and one CD by Robin Mark - I'm not sure if he's catholic or protestant, but he's Irish. But I prefer secular music.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-12225233388934596812007-07-25T16:10:00.000-05:002007-07-25T16:10:00.000-05:00My wife likes quite a bit of Christian music, but ...My wife likes quite a bit of Christian music, but I've never really liked it much. I do find a lot of spiritual inspiration in U2's music, though. And Six Pence None The Richer (now defunct, I believe) had some richness and complexity to their music. But I don't believe either of them are/were trying to be explicitly 'Christian' in their labeling. They were expressing themselves, and that was their genuine expression.<BR/><BR/>And then there are artists like Sting, Bob Marley, and Los Lonely Boys who have written some pieces that are very catholic in their spiritual message. There's an awful lot of good 'Christian' and 'catholic' music out there if one listens for it.<BR/><BR/>I like the point about how Protestant and Catholic theology tend to see the world differently. That's reflected not only in music, but also in politics and literature. Well, maybe less so in politics these days, which is regrettable and is taking this off into a different tangent, so I won't go there any further....Steve Bognerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11372621294204774480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-67954610209910829382007-07-25T15:43:00.000-05:002007-07-25T15:43:00.000-05:00Hey Jeff,I found you on the St. Blogs parish aggra...Hey Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I found you on the St. Blogs parish aggragator. I actually stumbled across your 'what ancient language post', yesterday, and then stumbled here again today. Here's a link to a representative Relient K song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsgwrCO6jZcjpkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11135126779401658529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-91859879231687850972007-07-25T14:05:00.000-05:002007-07-25T14:05:00.000-05:00Hello James,Thanks, and welcome here. Cool blog y...Hello James,<BR/><BR/>Thanks, and welcome here. Cool blog you have there. I like your poetry. How did you happen to find me here, if you don't mind my asking?<BR/><BR/>I'm not familiar with Relient K, but I agree with you regarding Jars of Clay. Their chops are as good as anyone else's I'm hearing out there.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1607379997605074102007-07-25T12:59:00.000-05:002007-07-25T12:59:00.000-05:00This is a very good post, I am a bit younger-born ...This is a very good post, I am a bit younger-born in the late eighties-so I never knew about Stryker, and the origins of Christian rock, but as you said, I have tended to find more meaning in the 'nuggets' of truth in 'secular' music than in the overtly religious lyrics of most Christian artists. Two Christian artists that I respect though, are Relient K, and Jars of Clay, because both could successfully pull off a totally secular band, and their music doesn't slam Christianity over your head. I also thought that your point about the Catholic imagination always being more hopeful about the goodness in the world, incredibly insightful. Thanks for your valuable commentary.jpkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11135126779401658529noreply@blogger.com