tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post7207812927676263387..comments2023-10-19T08:49:35.405-05:00Comments on Aún Estamos Vivos: Bill Cork Bails Out, Frank Beckwith Jumps Back InJeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-30826714757812208922007-05-21T16:52:00.000-05:002007-05-21T16:52:00.000-05:00William,What is it about the mass that's pissing y...William,<BR/><BR/>What is it about the mass that's pissing you off? Is it something that you are hearing or not hearing in the typical homily that is making you angry, or is something about the liturgy itself? I suppose it probably doesn't help to trot out what might seem by now to be a cliche or a banality - that the mass isn't about the priest or the sermon. The homily is in fact very important, and Catholic priests, by and large, haven't been trained too well in homiletics. The really good preacher seems to be the exception rather than the rule.<BR/><BR/>Yes, I have heard of Thomas Howard. I haven't read <I>Evangelical Is Not Enough</I>, or any of his other books, although I have read some apologetics articles he's written. The main reason I know about him is because I'm fascinated by the life and the writing of a certain friend of his, <A HREF="http://www.frankschaeffer.com/" REL="nofollow">Frank Schaeffer</A>. Schaeffer is the son of the very influential and famous evangelical writer and theologian, <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer" REL="nofollow">Francis Schaeffer</A>. Young Frank left Evangelicalism for Eastern Orthodoxy (he wrote about it a bit in a book called <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Dancing-Alone-Quest-Orthodox-Religion/dp/192865309X/ref=sr_1_7/002-3880163-1693627?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179783415&sr=1-7" REL="nofollow">Dancing Alone</A>), and wrote novels about his own childhood as a missionary's son in an enlightening and entertaining series called the <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-5362974-3913616?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=schaeffer%2C+frank" REL="nofollow">Calvin Dort Becker trilogy</A>. As you can see from his website, he writes mainly now about his experience of being the father of a marine in wartime, and his frustration with the elites of this country for not having to make any sacrifices of their own. Thomas Howard was and is a friend of his, and Schaeffer chided him in a good-natured way for going with Catholicism rather than Orthodoxy, although I can't find the article online anymore ("A Conversation With Thomas Howard and Frank Schaeffer"). I think Schaeffer has backed off of his "Dancing Alone" polemics a bit, now that he's found a new cause.<BR/><BR/>I appreciate greatly what you say in the closing paragraphs, and it reminds me of what I like about what Fr. Ron Rolheiser wrote in his essay 'Conservatism is a Good Place to Start From', the first external link I have listed on the blog.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-29385365986247243392007-05-20T10:58:00.000-05:002007-05-20T10:58:00.000-05:00Jeff,I did bail out, though. I became a born-agai...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I did bail out, though. I became a born-again Evangelical at 18 and spent a number of years in that environment. And for part of that time, I was pretty anti-Catholic. In retrospect, I think I was rebelling against what I felt was a cold, anti-spiritual religious/political hierarchy [the System!] that included all of the mainline Christian churches, but since I grew up Catholic, I reserved a lot of my anger for the Church. This was my non-denominational, charismatic period.<BR/><BR/>Eventually, I began to miss the sacraments. And I eventually wound up going to Episcopal churches. I may have already asked you this, but have you ever read <A HREF="http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/authors/thomashoward.asp" REL="nofollow">Thomas Howard</A>? His books <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Tiger-Thomas-Howard/dp/1592448445/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9626137-0286253?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179675582&sr=1-1" REL="nofollow">Christ, the Tiger</A> and <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Splendor-Ordinary-Your-Home-Place/dp/1928832202/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/103-9626137-0286253?ie=UTF8&qid=1179675582&sr=1-1" REL="nofollow">Splendor in the Ordinary</A> and <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Evangelical-Not-Enough-Worship-Sacrament/dp/0898702216/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-9626137-0286253?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179675732&sr=1-1" REL="nofollow">Evangelical is Not Enough</A> meant a lot to me. His own journey was from the Evangelical churche [his ister is a famous Evangelical missionary], to the Episcopal Church, to the Catholic Church. If you ever have someone from an Evangelical background who shows interest in Catholicism, I would highly recommend his books.<BR/><BR/>At one point, I stopped going to church altogether. It was moving to Spain that got me to reconnect somewhat with the Catholic Church. I met a woman who was about as "Catholic" as I was at taht point. And since we wanted a spiritual wedding, getting married by the Spanish government in a cold, municipal building didn't feel right. But, yes, getting married in the Church by a priest we respected felt good. In fact, it healed a lot of pain for me. Unfortunately, when we've gone to mass in the States since coming back, I've only seemed to encounter the kind of Churches I disliked so much before (with the exception of Ascension, where Liam goes.) I'd feel hungry to go to Mass, so we'd go. Then I would walk out pissed off and in disbelief that I had been sucker enough to go back. Then, a few months later, I'd feel the urge again. Then, I'd get pissed off again. This is the current pattern. I just went last weekend, while visiting the in-laws, and though I didn't come out pissed off, I certainly wouldn't go running to that church on a regular basis.<BR/><BR/>But it's more than just not finding a church I feel comfortable with. It's also about my own spiritual journey. I don't say I'm NOT a Catholic - I've actually started putting "Catholic" down for Religion on the Zogby polls I do, a major shift for me. So you can call me one without asking my forgiveness! But I don't feel like I'm ONLY Catholic. At one point in Spain, I had what some might call a mystical experience, and ever since then I've felt connected to the planet, life, G-d, the cosmos in a way I never did before. I feel engaged with LIFE in a healthy, positive way. I'm an American, but in my heart I feel like I just belong to the planet earth. I'm a Catholic, but I just feel like a human being trying to live in relationship to the Almighty.<BR/><BR/>I don't know, it's hard to explain.<BR/><BR/>I'm a bit of a wanderer, I'm afraid. I envy your living in the same house and parish for so long. You have a kind of community that I can never have. And I don't think it's being stuck in a rut. People are just different. I'm sure there are psychological reasons for my need to explore and journey around. You mention the contemplative monks, which I wanted to be myself at one point. I was pleased to discover that Buddhism has monks who wander. That's kind of how I feel.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-17870857983571476772007-05-19T10:43:00.000-05:002007-05-19T10:43:00.000-05:00Hi William,What do you mean, you bailed out? You ...Hi William,<BR/><BR/>What do you mean, you bailed out? You were married by a Catholic priest in Catholic Church, weren't you? Come on, snap out of it.<BR/>:-) <BR/><BR/>I'm going to ask you to forgive me for considering you to be a Catholic whether you like it or not, because you have one of the most sacramental views of the world of all the people I've ever encountered on the web. So there. <BR/><BR/>I can well understand the Austin story, even though stability has always been a big thing with me. After all, I'm in the same house, (if somewhat expanded) that I've been in since the age of 3, and the same parish. You might say I'm a bit stuck in a rut, but it has suited me pretty well. I might have made a good contemplative monk in some respects.<BR/><BR/>The other day I was at a funeral in a Congregational Church, and was thinking to myself, "man, these ministers really do know how to preach", but the lack of sacramntalism left me feeling incomplete... as if something was really missing. I suppose that genetic memory and those bonds of upbringing really do exert a pull on us.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-51221835016264440272007-05-16T23:24:00.000-05:002007-05-16T23:24:00.000-05:00Oh, right, I did want to respond to Winnipeg's com...Oh, right, I did want to respond to Winnipeg's comment on the lack of community. I think there's a different kind of community in Catholic churches and Protestant churches. Mass is a ritual, related in some ways to going to the cinema or a symphony or a baseball game - other ritualistic experiences. You don't necessarily chat with the people next to you at a symphony. But you do feel a strong kinship with symphony-goers, and if you meet a stranger and discover they also love the symphony, you often feel an instant bond. Maybe you join a symphony society. In other words, a lot of the community takes place outside the actual ritual involved.<BR/><BR/>It also depends on the church. I've been to some warm Catholic churches where the priest made a real effort to build community. And I've been to many ice-cold Protestant churches. My experience has been that "community" may be strongest in the non-demoninational charismatic churhces. But I think that's because they don't have anything else. There's no larger church structure. There's no ritual most of the time. So what are you left with? These churches tend to rely heavily on emotion, which makes community easier. But watch what happens when that community goes bad! It's really, really vicious. Too many of these churches becomes a cult of personality centered around the pastor. And sometimes, as I discovered for myself, they're just cults, period.<BR/><BR/>Having said all of that, many Catholic Churches could use some work on building community. I've seen good examples. I think Liam's Church probably has a stronger sense of community, from what I saw on my one visit. It takes a leadership that fosters community and people within the church who want to make it happen.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-21074781539302938092007-05-16T23:02:00.000-05:002007-05-16T23:02:00.000-05:00Jeff,There's a lot here to chew on. Alas, it's la...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>There's a lot here to chew on. Alas, it's late and I'm tired, having just tried my hand at translating and explicating an Antonio Machado poem at Crystal's.<BR/><BR/>You know, one of these days, I'd love to sit down with you and discuss some of these things face to face. Blogging's great, but how can I possibly express a lifetime of experience, meditation, dreaming, fighting, loving, etc. in a few lines?<BR/><BR/>I bailed out. I keep in touch, because . . . . well, for various reasons. It's sort of like being born into a family. Or being born in Texas. It helped make me who I am. ["Blood is thicker than water, and the communities that fostered us in our youth may put bonds around us that are tighter than we think."] But I'm not just a member of my family or from Texas or a Catholic. Or anything else.<BR/><BR/>I think a lot of people do "go home." And all of us to one degree or another probably do revert back to aspects of our childhood as we get older. I certainly find this in myself. On the other hand, some say you can't go home again. And I think this is also true. I moved back to Austin after being away for ten years, and it was one of the worst experiences of my life. It really depends on the person. Spiritual paths are funny things. It's like the Camino de Santiago - they tell you over and over that you have to walk the Camino at your own pace. And that definitely seemed to be the case. Nobody can walk our spiritual path. Even though our paths may share long stretches with other people.<BR/><BR/>But I don't think I'm making any sense. It's late! My path at the moment is to move towards the bed.<BR/><BR/>We'll pray that you find a house.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-76602323624389263242007-05-15T17:25:00.000-05:002007-05-15T17:25:00.000-05:00Hey B.,Good point. I certainly think you are righ...Hey B.,<BR/><BR/>Good point. I certainly think you are right about that, and it's ironic and a bit embarrassing, because the Eucharist is supposed to bind us closer together as a community, but too many of us have seen it and the entire Mass in the sense of a privatized devotion.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-29869934586196450092007-05-15T17:21:00.000-05:002007-05-15T17:21:00.000-05:00Hi Steve,Good to see you again. I hadn't seen you...Hi Steve,<BR/><BR/>Good to see you again. I hadn't seen you blogging in a while. <BR/><BR/>I think a lot of people might agree with you that certain aspects of RCIA need an overhaul.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-65627670065659639962007-05-14T08:57:00.000-05:002007-05-14T08:57:00.000-05:00Hi Jeff,I also think that we have a real problem i...Hi Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I also think that we have a real problem in how we reach out to others. A lack of a visit in a nusing home or after the death of a child or some other tragedy... A lack of warmth, a lack of strong community plagues so many parishes.<BR/><BR/>Protestants often have Sunday school and coffee hours, they all know one another by name. <BR/><BR/>We just don't have that. The mass packs in a scripture study and worship in 45-60 efficient action packed minutes. It is very beautiful, the traditions are beautiful, the stance against nihilism is beautiful. But the lack of community, I think, is a major problem.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-2555928576339285062007-05-13T20:53:00.000-05:002007-05-13T20:53:00.000-05:00Great post, Jeff. I also suspect that the RCIA/for...Great post, Jeff. I also suspect that the RCIA/formation process has something to do with how a future-Catholic views the church. <BR/><BR/>And yes - 'nuanced' is a good way to put it!Steve Bognerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11372621294204774480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-81746069715062235052007-05-13T15:05:00.000-05:002007-05-13T15:05:00.000-05:00Amen brother Jeff.:-)Amen brother Jeff.:-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-28636954067378314982007-05-12T18:56:00.000-05:002007-05-12T18:56:00.000-05:00Garpu,I hear you! I guess I feel the same way. I...Garpu,<BR/><BR/>I hear you! I guess I feel the same way. I'm not going anywhere, and nobody's going to throw me out. I don't care if I'm the last one left to lock the doors and turn out the lights. :-)Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-71660231073501907332007-05-12T18:53:00.000-05:002007-05-12T18:53:00.000-05:00Hi Paula,Yes, I think that coming from Orthodoxy, ...Hi Paula,<BR/><BR/>Yes, I think that coming from Orthodoxy, which already puts great weight on patristics and on Sacred Tradition would certainly be a very different experience. <BR/><BR/>Tensions there may be here with us, but as you said very brilliantly <A HREF="http://pay37.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/not-much-in-common/" REL="nofollow">on your blog</A>, we are all part of the same Body, and we all need each other.<BR/><BR/>Like the Apostle says:<BR/><BR/><I>As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. <BR/> <BR/>For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit. <BR/> <BR/>Now the body is not a single part, but many. <BR/> <BR/>If a foot should say, "Because I am not a hand I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. <BR/> <BR/>Or if an ear should say, "Because I am not an eye I do not belong to the body," it does not for this reason belong any less to the body. <BR/> <BR/>If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? <BR/> <BR/>But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended. <BR/> <BR/>If they were all one part, where would the body be? <BR/> <BR/>But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body. <BR/> <BR/>The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you." <BR/> <BR/>Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary, and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety, whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it, <BR/>so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another. <BR/> <BR/>If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.</I><BR/>1 Cor 12:12-26Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-69105681243625299282007-05-12T18:46:00.000-05:002007-05-12T18:46:00.000-05:00Hi Crystal,Well, we can't ever let you revert back...Hi Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Well, we can't ever let you revert back to being nothing, can we? <BR/><BR/>:-)<BR/><BR/>That which defines itself as Catholic (Universal) must within that definition leave some room for diversity within it.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-6377535012170351692007-05-12T12:03:00.000-05:002007-05-12T12:03:00.000-05:00Jeff, Good post.I am a convert and I could only re...Jeff, <BR/>Good post.<BR/>I am a convert and I could only revert to Eastern-Orthodoxy from where I came (it is a way of saying that I came from there, since I only practiced several years..well you know my story).:-).<BR/>And I will never revert because I really want to be in the Catholic Church. One of the reasons why I want to be here is exactly the tensions within the Church that you so well describe. :-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-65581153794919140402007-05-12T03:08:00.000-05:002007-05-12T03:08:00.000-05:00I'm a convert, and I have nothing to revert back t...I'm a convert, and I have nothing to revert back to :-) I really had no idea about the different views within the church when I joined, but I'm glad there is so much wiggle room.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-26598050164480037452007-05-12T00:13:00.000-05:002007-05-12T00:13:00.000-05:00Agreed...I love the Church--it's what I was born i...Agreed...I love the Church--it's what I was born into--and they'll have to throw me out, even though there are things I struggle with. I wonder if there's a way to get converts and reverts to relax. I think in being so rigid, they're losing a lot of the joy in our faith.Garpuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09460312942820868366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-87359425724760313612007-05-11T19:07:00.000-05:002007-05-11T19:07:00.000-05:00Hey Mike,Great to see you, and thanks for the comm...Hey Mike,<BR/><BR/>Great to see you, and thanks for the comment. How was Mexico? Shoot me a note on it when you get a chance. :-)<BR/><BR/>BlessingsJeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-6226734816917144642007-05-11T19:01:00.000-05:002007-05-11T19:01:00.000-05:00"I guess a lot of converts and reverts come aboard..."I guess a lot of converts and reverts come aboard and expect to find a monolithic entity in which there is complete unity and harmony among true believers, and that all disputed questions have been settled, or at least have a means of being settled definitively. I'm not eloquent enough to put it into words, but perhaps most cradle Catholics realize that it is much more complicated than that, and that there is always a dynamic tension between authority and the sense of the faithful... I have a hard time describing it..." <BR/><BR/>On the contrary, Jeff, you described it beautifully. Catholic theology was mediated by Catholic culture and context, neither of which are accessible to today's converts...or for that matter, our children! <BR/><BR/>Money quote: "...it is much more complicated than that."<BR/><BR/>Peace, Mike McG...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com