tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post4373866158416442970..comments2023-10-19T08:49:35.405-05:00Comments on Aún Estamos Vivos: My Paul Problem: Part IJeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-42466461548331329282007-09-21T14:16:00.000-05:002007-09-21T14:16:00.000-05:00William,Regarding your Paul problem...I’ve always ...William,<BR/><BR/>Regarding <I>your</I> Paul problem...<BR/><BR/>I’ve always found that the Johannine epistles were a good exegetical corrective to the possibility of a glucosamine overdose being adminstered to the laity through the Pauline missives. For example, we’ve always needed correctives like “You’ve Got To Hide Your Love Away” to those saccharine epistles such as “Hello Goodbye” . If not for the Johannine influence, Paul’s most well-beloved working pastoral letter title would have remained “Scrambled Eggs”, instead of “Yesterday”. There were even times that a letter issued by Paul should have been read by John. A Johannine vocal on “Oh Darling!” would have worked much better than the Pauline vocal, but the workaholic control freak just had to “prove” that he could “out-Johaninne” John.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-32579645309414024292007-09-20T21:19:00.000-05:002007-09-20T21:19:00.000-05:00You know Crystal, I never really thought about tha...You know Crystal, I never really thought about that. Jesus never struck anyone dead, save perhaps for the herd of swine over the cliff. As for Peter... Was it a "sign and "wonder" on his part that did it, or a self-inflicted offense against the Holy spirit? Either way...Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-29097831780264288172007-09-20T13:00:00.000-05:002007-09-20T13:00:00.000-05:00Will - I don't think his take on slavery, women, o...Will - <I>I don't think his take on slavery, women, or homosexuals is any different than what's in the Old Testament.</I> .... you make my point for me.<BR/><BR/>Jeff - Yes, Ananias and Sapphira. Jesus went through three years of public miistry, including getting murdered, and never knocked anyone off. Peter's in control for three months (actually don't know how long :-) and decides to make an example of some backsliders.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-30017923185672437882007-09-20T09:28:00.000-05:002007-09-20T09:28:00.000-05:00Sure, John wrote the best known tract on love, and...Sure, John wrote the best known tract on love, and being more of a Johannine Beatles fan, I think he consistently wrote better works on love, but I was thinking of "Oh Darling!," "And I Love Her," things like that. The Gerogian works on love are also quite good. Even St. Francis Sinatra loved "Something."<BR/><BR/>But I'm pulling this away from the real topic at hand. Sorry! One of us needs to post on the Beatles, however. Gotta get all this off my chest.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-57986966309378091102007-09-20T08:48:00.000-05:002007-09-20T08:48:00.000-05:00William,Remember, "All You Need is Love" is Johann...William,<BR/><BR/>Remember, "All You Need is Love" is Johannine, not Pauline. :-)<BR/><BR/>The unlikely source was no the E.O. This will be inseveral parts, so I'll get to that later. <BR/><BR/>Great post. I'll respond more in depth later. I love doctrinal Beatles discussions. <BR/><BR/>Hi Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Yeah, Paul was always talking <I>pneuma</I> (spirit) over flesh, wasn't he? Elaine Pagels once wrote a book called <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/Gnostic-Paul-Exegesis-Pauline-Letters/dp/1563380390" REL="nofollow">The Gnostic Paul</A>. She thinks everybody was a gnostic, though. She's a gnostic herself. :-)<BR/><BR/>Don't forget that a lot of that stuff that you don't like about St. Paul was written not by him, but written later in his name when the monarchical episcopate was taking shape (authority was being established over a more free-wheeling movement).<BR/><BR/>Whose fatalities are you laying at Peter's feet? Ananias and Sapphira from Acts? Who else? Don't forget about him lopping off Malchus' ear either. Jesus had to clean that one up for him. :-)Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-61885742441001256742007-09-20T08:32:00.000-05:002007-09-20T08:32:00.000-05:00Oh, was the "unlikely source" you mention in the s...Oh, was the "unlikely source" you mention in the subtitle the Eastern Orthodox church and their concept of Theosis? I'd like to hear more on what that is and how it influenced you.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-74170346357781857922007-09-20T08:28:00.000-05:002007-09-20T08:28:00.000-05:00Interesting post, Jeff. I've always had a bit of ...Interesting post, Jeff. I've always had a bit of a "Paul problem" myself. I respect him, and I know how important he was, but I'm not sure his controlling nature was always a good influence on the others. While I agree that there was obviously a strong Pauline/Johannine character, I think the dichotomy would be more with the Georgian/Ringoian character, no? I'm not sure who you mean by "Jamesian/Matthean," unless you're referring obliquely to George Martin. Still for all his faults, Paul did produce some beautiful works on love. "Blackbird," too, has always been a favorite.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, couldn't resist. I blame your hilarious announcement from Jesus and the easy target of "Pauline/Johannine." Maybe they should put that on the record labels, rather than Lennon-McCartney. Or, as Paul has been doing of late: McCartney-Lennon. (The controlling bastard!)<BR/><BR/>Once upon a time I was more into the faith-works debate. But at some point I just felt like it was more of an offense-defense thing. You've got to have both. The true goal is Love, as Paul so eloquently pointed out in Corinthians. <BR/><BR/>I like some of Paul's writings. Ephesians, for example, is quite beautiful. And I don't think his take on slavery, women, or homosexuals is any different than what's in the Old Testament. Or that he "invented" Christianity. One may struggle with what is said in the Bible about various issues, but I don't think Paul can be blamed for the thousands of years of thinking and writing that preceded him. The issue, it seems, would be with Judaism, not Paul. I guess the question is, how much Judaism did Paul inject into the teachings of Jesus? But this is also the man who wrote "All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful."<BR/><BR/>Whatever, I think you nail it when you talk about him being the first systematic thinker on what Jesus taught us.<BR/><BR/>In a sense, maybe Paul the saint isn't so different from Sir Paul, the Beatle. "Ob-la-di, Ob-la-da" may make me want to throw the stereo out the window in disgust, but I would never want Paul to have NOT been a Beatle. His voice (and I mean in overall presence and influence) is essential to the Beatles. Nor can I imagine the Bible or Christianity without the writings of the earlier Paul. (Funny, their characters actually do seem similar, don't they?)<BR/><BR/>Your annoucement, btw, is classic. Very, very well-done.cowboyangelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13452987299073540171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-4809251189301916162007-09-19T17:57:00.000-05:002007-09-19T17:57:00.000-05:00Ha :-)except for the discourse on love from Corin...Ha :-)<BR/><BR/><I>except for the discourse on love from Corinthians, I don’t like the letters of St. Paul as much as the four Gospels and the “Catholic” Epistles.</I> ..... Me too.<BR/><BR/>I just can't make myself like Paul. He seems almost gnostic, he's ok with slavery, bad news for women and homosexuals. On the other hand, Peter killed a couple of church members, so Paul might say to him, "At least I don't have to bury my mistakes." :-)crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.com