tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post116994808006180106..comments2023-10-19T08:49:35.405-05:00Comments on Aún Estamos Vivos: In Praise of Simple PietyJeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-9582945159899532022009-07-30T03:43:21.613-05:002009-07-30T03:43:21.613-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170284086066852472007-01-31T17:54:00.000-05:002007-01-31T17:54:00.000-05:00I think Sushil’s post brings up some evidence that...I think Sushil’s post brings up some evidence that’s hard to argue with. I’ve always suspected as much. His thesis may be right on the money.<BR/><BR/>One day Anne and I were talking to the principal of the parochial school that several our children attend, about the prevalence of ADD and autism in children today. This principal, a nun, indicated that she thinks that something has definitely been happening within the minds of children over the past few decades. She spoke of her experience of being a young novice teaching in the working-class city of Lowell back in the fifties, having to handle a class of 50 kids or so on her own. The kids stayed in their seats and paid attention. She had no real problem keeping the class under control. Now, even with classes less than half the size, it is a chore to maintain order. In her opinion, it goes far beyond a matter of brattiness or children brought up without proper discipline. She thinks there is something physiological going on.<BR/><BR/>I’ve often wondered what the affects of television images and video games have on the minds of children. Could these rapid images be killing slow emotions, as Sushil says? I really think so, especially within the last few years, as the style and pace of editing gets quicker and quicker. I can hardly stand to go to the movie theater anymore. The <I>quick</I> visual cuts and blaring soundtracks are getting to be too much for me.<BR/><BR/>In the realm of religion, can this have an impact? We seem to be a society that increasingly scorns formality and increasingly demands stimulation, entertainment, and instant gratification. Neither trend bodes particularly well for the Catholic style of worship, which tends towards the contemplative. <BR/><BR/>Interesting that Sushil is posting from India. Perhaps the affects there are all too obvious. With the proliferation of I/T services and back-end office jobs that have sprung up in India, the dichotomy between the worlds of the haves and have-nots must be even more striking. It is not so much a middle-class that is being built, but the formation of an overclass that further extends the gap between the rich and the poor. A gap that is also between technocrats and agrarians.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170282781189196812007-01-31T17:33:00.000-05:002007-01-31T17:33:00.000-05:00Hi Steve,Great remarks, and I’m looking forward to...Hi Steve,<BR/><BR/>Great remarks, and I’m looking forward to reading your comments when you get the opportunity<BR/>to write about it in depth.<BR/><BR/>I can tell you that my experience has very much been the same as yours. After the 2002 Convention, I noticed that the VOTF momentum had suddenly slumped. I think they made a serious tactical mistake in having a panel of speakers entirely associated with the Catholic left. There should have been some balance there. I asked in one of the subsequent meetings if any conservatives had been invited to address the conference, and I was told that invitations had been made, but that they had been refused (that is probably true… I read something Jim Muller once wrote indicating that George Weigel had been very perfunctory and dismissive of them when they contacted him). What struck me, though, was the attitude towards that. It was sort of like “this train is leaving the station… If the conservatives don’t want to be on board, so be it. If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.” I think this was a mistake. <BR/><BR/>I’m sort of an “in-betweener” between this older generation you speak of and the younger generation. I still believe in Vatican II, even though the world has changed a great deal since then. I’ve heard members of this older generation lament that the younger generation doesn’t want to pick up the mantle of Vatican II, and I have to explain to them that I’ve spent hours and hours on the web trying to convince young Catholics who still care about these things that Vatican II was not a Communist/Masonic-inspired plot to bring down the Catholic Church. The older folks look at me without comprehending. I don’t know if they are aware of what is out there on the web. I’ve heard them in meetings talk about the tears and pain and stress in their marriages back in the sixties over battles fought over the contraception issue, an issue which hardly affects young Catholics whatsoever. I don’t know, and I must be careful not to bear false witness, but you get a sense that even the young couples among the supposedly “new orthodox” who attend conservative retreats, workshops and conferences are sleeping together. It’s something that young people have just decided to make up their minds about on their own, no matter what part of the divide they come down on. <BR/><BR/>Ladislas Orsy SJ gave a wonderful talk at my parish once about Vatican II. One of these days I’m going to post my notes on it here. One of the things he emphasized was the importance stressed at the Council on being able to read the “Signs of the Times.” What I think he and others may not realize is how different the signs of the times are now from what they were 40 years ago. There is one thing that has come around full-circle, though. The real possibility of nuclear conflagration (the Council began under the shadow of the Cuban Missile Crisis). <BR/><BR/>Another thing Fr. Orsy emphasized was the importance of accepting diversity. A close friend of mine and I got into an intense, heated discussion a few weeks ago. He was voicing his distrust of the VOTF and I was voicing my distrust of the new Latin Mass Indult community that had just been formed at a parish close by to us that the diocese had previously been contemplating the closure of. We both calmed down enough, however, to realize that we both need an appreciation for diversity. We realized we were both heaping and projecting our own sense of political baggage on these groups, perhaps unfairly. After all, the word “Catholic” means “universal”, and if something is going to be “universal”, it going to have to be able to tolerate some diversity within it.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170245127065132252007-01-31T07:05:00.000-05:002007-01-31T07:05:00.000-05:00Jeff, I've been a VOTF member since the early days...Jeff, I've been a VOTF member since the early days. My parish has a VOTF group, and a couple years ago at one of their first meetings they were talking about their frustrations in not attracting more young-ish people. I was around 38 back then, and I was the youngest person there. My feedback to them - realize that we 'young' people come from a post-Vatican 2 world, and we can't really identify with the older folks' V2 gripes. Shock & silence followed; maybe I was too blunt, but it seems to me that what united them (though they tried hard to stick to victims & priestly support) was a platform of what they were against, not what they were for.<BR/><BR/>In the years that have followed, I've seen a mellowing of my parish, a turn from identifying with liberal Jesuit causes to a more personal & spiritual nature (which is also part of the Jesuit/Ignatian nature, but a less known part). And it has been led by the post-V2 families and local university students.<BR/><BR/>You know, there are all sorts of ways to be Catholic - from cerebral to devotional to whatever. But I think many folks are boxed-in by the identity of their own parish's brand of Catholicism. We don't teach our kids, or our adults, about all this diversity - and so if their current parish doesn't 'fit' they think *Catholicism* doesn't fit them. It's a subject I've intended to write about for a while (just need the time!).Steve Bognerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11372621294204774480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170200513165647762007-01-30T18:41:00.000-05:002007-01-30T18:41:00.000-05:00Crystal,Yes, I do think that growing up in a parti...Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Yes, I do think that growing up in a particular tradition makes it different. <BR/><BR/>You really touched upon something there with regards to community in terms of personal shyness, etc... I've often heard converts say that when they first started visiting or worshipping in a Catholic Church, they were stuck by the fact that no one really noticed them. In some other types of faith communities, someone will be there to greet you at the door with a smile and a handshake, and will ask you all about yourself. I've heard some people who lament that this doesn't typically happen in Catholic Churches and others who take a kind of comfort out of it. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Liam,<BR/><BR/><I>The music director is starting up a schola cantorum dedicated to teaching people who bray like a donkey like me to learn gregorian chant. I'm signing up.</I><BR/><BR/>That's great! I think that is part of the genius of Gregorian Chant. You don't need to be a great singer to do it.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170198770789419542007-01-30T18:12:00.000-05:002007-01-30T18:12:00.000-05:00Yes, I think you're right about things being taken...Yes, I think you're right about things being taken away without giving something to replace them. I think also often liturgical reforms are enforced from above (even at the parish level, from an energetic and tyrannical pastor or liturgical director) without an explanation of the reason behind them. This is often done by both traditionalists (no altar girls because I said so!) and progressives (no kneeling after the Angus Dei because I said so!).<BR/><BR/>I am a great lover of Latin and chant, though I think having the liturgy in the vernacular is a good idea. In my parish there is a good mix. There are also different Masses with different kinds of music (e.g., with a choir that does things like Palestrina at one, a jazz Mass Sunday evening, a Spanish Mass with drums and guitars). <BR/><BR/>The music director is starting up a schola cantorum dedicated to teaching people who bray like a donkey like me to learn gregorian chant. I'm signing up.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170185723658105412007-01-30T14:35:00.001-05:002007-01-30T14:35:00.001-05:00Jeff,I wonder if it's different for someone who gr...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>I wonder if it's different for someone who grew up with a religion and someone like me who chose it as an adult? <BR/><BR/>I had a lot of assumptions about church, mostly from books and movies, so it was amazing to become part of it myself through the RCIA classes. I was so shy it was hard to be among so many strangers and to not be able to see them well, to not be sure about how to act, to not have the right clothes, etc. I loved being at church, but I was scared of all the people :-)<BR/><BR/>It is different with the soirituality stuff ... seems more like just me and God, so it's stressful in a different way.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170185708049306302007-01-30T14:35:00.000-05:002007-01-30T14:35:00.000-05:00Hi Liam,Interesting points you bring up, and I sha...Hi Liam,<BR/><BR/>Interesting points you bring up, and I share some of that sentiment with you. Interesting, though, how lines have been drawn in the Church as if they had been fault lines that were always in place where they currently are, but that isn't necessarily the case. In <I>Bare Ruined Choirs</I> Garry Wills wrote about how the progressives in the 1950s were very much into Latin for prayer and liturgical renewal and the invocation of papal encycicals in support of social justice causes. Now Latin and the appeal to encylicals are more associated with traditionalism. <BR/>I love Gregorian Chant and Latin, but I get a bit uneasy now by the ecclesiology it has become identified with in a political sense. <BR/><BR/>I think a lot of things happened in the wake of Vatican II with well-meaning ecumenical intentions, like taking statues and votive candles out of the Churches, less emphasis on private devotions... things that seemed like extra-biblical Counter-Reformation accoutrements. It may have been a mistake to let go of so many distinctive cultural Catholic markers like our devotions, without anything to replace them. Even liberals like Andrew Greeley have commented that easing up on fish on Fridays was a huge mistake (although speaking for myself and my own pesce-phobia, I am most grateful).Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170184813144323422007-01-30T14:20:00.000-05:002007-01-30T14:20:00.000-05:00Hi Mike,It took me quite a while to read all the w...Hi Mike,<BR/><BR/>It took me quite a while to read all the way through that thread on the Intentional Disciples on dotCommonweal. Fascinating dynamic there. The ID spokespeople were trying to calmly and rationally make an explanation for what they were all about, and I found some of the responses to be visceral and emotional. I can't even say they were progressive responses.<BR/><BR/>I think I can make a stab at what I think the objectors were trying to get at, but weren't articulating too well. Their objections weren't making a lot of sense, but there certainly was a subtext there that they were picking up intuitively. There are certain words and touch-phrases like "magisterial" and "assent to Church teaching" that have become emotion-laden in our Catholic cultural wars, and are sure to always stir up controversy. I think liberals and conservatives alike can agree that the texts of Vatican II call the laity to greater discipleship and holiness. Neither side will argue with that. The sticking point still continues to be, as it has been over the last few decades, the issue of authority.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170184220289216682007-01-30T14:10:00.000-05:002007-01-30T14:10:00.000-05:00Hi Crystal,I love Ignatian spirituality too. I th...Hi Crystal,<BR/><BR/>I love Ignatian spirituality too. I think we both happen to be types who are always in the mode of "faith seeking understanding", and we can look at lots of eclectic ideas, but sometimes I wonder if that is for everyone. Not everyone is always looking for spirituality. Some people are looking for religion and everything that comes along with that (doctrines, dogmas, rules, succor, salvation... certainties). I think theologians are very important but they have to be careful about not getting to a level where they become so specialized that they wind up talking only to one another. They have to be accessible. I understand what you are saying about the institution. I'm not sure I get much of that impression when I'm at Mass. On the other hand, the institutional aspect is a part of, and will always be a part of Catholicism.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170165890504302702007-01-30T09:04:00.000-05:002007-01-30T09:04:00.000-05:00Good comments guys... Very busy this week. I'll r...Good comments guys... Very busy this week. I'll respond when I get a chance...<BR/><BR/>JCJeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170110439730284602007-01-29T17:40:00.000-05:002007-01-29T17:40:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170105926337013802007-01-29T16:25:00.000-05:002007-01-29T16:25:00.000-05:00Great post, Jeff. It's interesting, I am extremely...Great post, Jeff. It's interesting, I am extremely liberal in a lot of ways, especially regarding birth control, homosexuality, ordination of women, etc., but at the same time I like a lot of things that many liberal Catholics either dislike or look down on in a patronizing way. I like devotions like the rosary, the stations of the Cross, the use of Holy Water, adoration, the cult of relics, etc... I don't necessarily practice them, but I think they are all too often dismissed as old-fashioned and a distraction. They give a richness to the Catholic experience that works on an almost physical level. <BR/><BR/>Of course, what extremely conservative movements both within and outside of the Catholic Church offer people is rigid and simple certainty, and that's tough to compete with. I wonder if, as a religious culture, we are going through a king of Puritan stage that is reacting against the uncertain ground of modernism and postmodernism?<BR/><BR/>I think Crystal is right about Jesuit spirituality, but how many people, especially peope who have not had the opportunity of an education, ever get to experience it or even know of its existence?Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170037370810073222007-01-28T21:22:00.000-05:002007-01-28T21:22:00.000-05:00Thanks for these reflections, Jeff. Liberals are j...Thanks for these reflections, Jeff. Liberals are just as 'skilled' as conservatives at neglecting the call to personal conversion and seeming to prefer focus on institutional issues. I know I'm guilty as charged.<BR/><BR/>Back in the day, reference was often made to the simple faith of the Irish washerwoman. I remember, for example, my Irish grandmother allowing as how she couldn't imagine how people could live thorugh this 'vail of tears' without 'the faith.' Her grandchildren and great grandchildren are much more sophisticated...degreed, all of us...but far less rooted in a faith that sustains amidst the angst and depression comparable to her vail of tears.<BR/><BR/>As a progressive Catholic, I am increasingly convinced that there is something barren in our stripped down, cerebral Catholicism. Over the past week I have been stunned at our progressive disdain for a more personal faith as evidenced by the following Intentional Disciple thread at dotCommonweal:<BR/><BR/>http://www.commonwealmagazine.org/blog/post/index/723/Intentional-Disciples<BR/><BR/>Perhaps we're too smart by half.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1170012783306378142007-01-28T14:33:00.000-05:002007-01-28T14:33:00.000-05:00Jeff,The idea that a personal relationship with Je...Jeff,<BR/><BR/>The idea that a personal relationship with Jesus is uncatholic and weird is untrue, I think ... that is the basis of Jesuit spirituality.<BR/><BR/>One of the reasons I was disappointed with church was that it seemed to be all about the institution of the church, and there was a lck of emphasis on spirituality. Maybe it's not so much a question of fundamentalism vs liberalism, but of a spiritualality-driven faith vs an emotionally distant church driven faith?crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1169999795367226572007-01-28T10:56:00.000-05:002007-01-28T10:56:00.000-05:00Thanks Friar,Having some familiarity with this reg...Thanks Friar,<BR/><BR/>Having some familiarity with this region (I'm always amazed at how many Catholic blogs originate from the Boston area and greater New England), I'm sure you can relate to a lot of what I'm talking about. <BR/><BR/>The generational divisions within religious houses are stories I've heard a lot about. The pendulum swung one way back in the sixties and seems to be moving in a different direction now. This polarization is a major concern of mine. I try to navigate carefully, but I find I often disappoint people on both sides. I fear I'm too liberal for the conservatives and not far enough to the left for liberals. Maybe it's just reflective of the fact that the Church can't bear another decade of these dichotomies, unspoken-about-tensions, and ambiguities anymore.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1169992522193877562007-01-28T08:55:00.000-05:002007-01-28T08:55:00.000-05:00I appreciate these reflections a lot, Jeff. These ...I appreciate these reflections a lot, Jeff. These divisions and questions are strong--sometimes almost to the point of caricature--in religious life.<BR/><BR/>I was talking to a friar the other day who had gone to teach our novices for a week. He tried to get them to examine their assumptions about gender roles and hierarchy by asking them to recall their feelings around early experiences of sitting around the dinner table.<BR/><BR/>He said they looked at him with confusion; such a thing just wasn't part of their experience.<BR/><BR/>When I was fresh out of novitiate myself, I and some others moved into an old convent here in Boston. When a brother found a tacky old monstrance in the basement, the brother in charge told him to throw it in the dumpster. Now what's a young friar raised on EWTN supposed to do with that?<BR/><BR/>I long for a sensitivity to experience and sense of humor on both sides.Brother Charleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07780326836452864455noreply@blogger.com