tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post114973610948048925..comments2023-10-19T08:49:35.405-05:00Comments on Aún Estamos Vivos: Appreciating Vatican II: Nostra AetateJeffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1152414242046148512006-07-08T22:04:00.000-05:002006-07-08T22:04:00.000-05:00Also, trying to change the truth of the gospel in ...Also, trying to change the truth of the gospel in regard to Judas is amazing. Only the left would try to make a hero out of Judas or find some mitigating circumstances for his betrayal of the Lord who he betrayed with a kiss. He took his 30 pieces of silver. These things are fact, not theory.<BR/><BR/>Also, JPII was right to stop priests from getting involved in liberation theology which is support of communism. I would say the JPII knew far more about this so called theology than any of the liberal professors or priests who wanted to dabble in it because they thought the poor would be better off under communism. No, you do not have to agree with JPII on everything, but I would trust his judgement in an area where he had so many years of practical experience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1152413918509765652006-07-08T21:58:00.000-05:002006-07-08T21:58:00.000-05:00John Chrysostom was no anti Semite. If you read p...John Chrysostom was no anti Semite. If you read proper translations you would see that translations of "Against the Jews", rather than what he actually wrote, "Against the Judaizers", which is the rendering the most up to date translations are now using. By this adjustment, sermons intended by the saint to be polemics against those in 4th century Antioch who would try to Judaize the Christians. <BR/>The Catholic Church teachings call us to study. I note a tone on this site that is toward the liberal side of belief where there are no solid truths to follow and beleive. We have truths which have been a gift handed down to us by the Church where we believe that the Holy Spirit has guided the Pope in matters of faith and morals. Some fail to listen when JPII says definitively that the Church has not authority to ever have women as priests and this is a matter to that must be believed. This should have ended the debate but many on the left do not accept this as now solid teaching of the church which cannot change. The same is true of those who support politicians who they know will go to Washington and support the abortion industry continuing murder of innocent children. Many of these try to use social justice reasons for their vote but this is poor logic because there are many ways to help the poor. Ending welfare helped the poor while the left plan of giving them money rather than helping them find a job has now proven to be the right way.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149879903758940662006-06-09T14:05:00.000-05:002006-06-09T14:05:00.000-05:00I experienced racism and anti-Semitism in differen...I experienced racism and anti-Semitism in different ways in Spain. Racism exists, even more so now that African immigration to Spain is very visible. It's the same all over Europe (and here, of course) and I think it is mainly confined to people on the rightward fringe.<BR/><BR/>What surprised me about anti-Semitism in Spain is that it seems to reach across the ideological spectrum, left to right. On the right, you get the same kind of classical anti-Semitism you find anywhere: Franco used to talk about a "Judeo-masonic" world conspiracy. My ex-mother-in-law (who LOVED Franco) owned a copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and believed it.<BR/><BR/>On the left, I found that reasonable criticism of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians seemed to allow people to indulge in general anti-Semitism. There was no difference between "Israelis" and "The Jews," and Israel is powerful because "The Jews" control world finance and Hollywood, among other things.<BR/><BR/>Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is a general idea throughout Spain. I was just surprised that people who, when speaking about most other things, were open-minded and liberal, talking about Jewish conspiracies. A Spanish friend who agreed with me about this mentioned how some people use the expression "una judiada" (hard to translate -- perhaps "a Jew kind of thing") to refer to something nasty that one person might do to another.<BR/><BR/>Another anecdote. Someone told me he knew a Jewish-American exchange student who was visiting village that the family she was staying with was from. One of the older family members asked if she would show them her horns.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149875112315901832006-06-09T12:45:00.000-05:002006-06-09T12:45:00.000-05:00Crystal,Yes, that's regrettable about Chrysostom, ...Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Yes, that's regrettable about Chrysostom, because he wrote so much other stuff that was really beautiful. He wasn't using the legendary "Golden Mouth" very well in pursuit of that purpose. I've heard people say in his defense that this was polemic that he was using not so much against Jews themselves, but against "Judaizing" Christians, although I think the distinction is minor and the defense is weak. At the time, the competition was intense, and the Talmud had some rough things to say about Jesus too. Many of the Christians in the East were still attending synagogue services and still co-mingling with the Jewish community. It was driving Chrysostom crazy, and this is what he was trying to combat.<BR/><BR/>Did Hitler use him to defend what he was doing? I know the Nazis used the writings of Martin Luther, who also wrote vicious anti-Jewish polemics, to justify themselves. There are few Christian groups with completely clean hands in this legacy.<BR/><BR/>Liam,<BR/><BR/>You make a good point about the SSPX, and that group is pet peeve of mine. They have gotten some mileage out of portraying themselves as nothing but the representation of the pre-Vatican II Church, but that isn't true. They never reflected the pre-Vatican II Church. They are the direct heirs to a small group of anti-modernist fanatics who descibed themselves as "integrists" during the pontificate of Pope Pius X, and ran a group of informers called the Sodalitium Pianum... That is a post in and of itsef for another time. <BR/><BR/>Joe,<BR/><BR/>Good post, although I'd just add that ignorance and unfamiliarity can sometimes breed contempt as much as familiarity can. I know from being in Ireland for example, that I was sometimes taken aback and stunned by careless, off-the-cuff anti-Jewish remarks thrown casually from people who had <I>never</I> met a Jewish person in their lives.<BR/><BR/>"Quema del jodio". Could that be anything like "Me cago en diez", where they thrown in "10" for "Dios"?Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149866582813583832006-06-09T10:23:00.000-05:002006-06-09T10:23:00.000-05:00Actually I have found somewhat the opposite. (Thou...Actually I have found somewhat the opposite. (Though obviously these are just my impressions). When I arrived in Spain in '89 the Spaniards talked with me and asked about the "prejuicios" (prejudisms) of the Americans especially against afro-americans and other minorities. (Not so much against jews as they perceived a pro-jewish orientation through our external media and politics.) They were pretty surprised at the racism and bigotry they observed through media, film, etc. and asked me about it. While I think I have no tolerance for racism and bigotry I usually explained this "phenomenon" by saying that is flourishes in places where people are actually confronted- face to face -with this ugly human trait of hating what is different. (i.e. places where there are actually large mixtures of race, beliefs, etc). Other places "were no racists or bigots" mostly because they were not directly confronted with the test on a large scale, not because they are inherently more tolerent. Up until a few years ago there were very few non-Spaniards in Spain. (Though attitutes toward the Gitanos/Gypsies has always been derrogatory.) And while Spain has a fabulous history of coexitence in places like Toledo and Cordoba, Spain has also been nearly exclusively catholic for many, many years. The decline of the jews after their abolishment in 1492 was absolute and only disguised remnants remain. The result is the same as described above: very little anti-semitism largely because there are just no Jews (in the 17 years I've been here, I might have met 2 Jews.)<BR/><BR/>To the history of the story you referenced Jeff I had a comment (Don't laugh Liam!)... but I couldn't help but ask myself in a semi-serious way, could they have been referring to "quema del jodio" (ie Andaluz accented way of saying "jodido") The word is not just the crass translation of the "F" word, but it is the name they give a person who is in truly the direst of straits. Maybe not, but it at least crosses my mind...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149825917960963702006-06-08T23:05:00.000-05:002006-06-08T23:05:00.000-05:00Speaking of anti-semtism, I was surprised by some ...Speaking of anti-semtism, I was surprised by some of the homilies of John Chrysostom ... I've read that they were used by Hitler to try to justify the killing of Jews to German Christians.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149818258634442722006-06-08T20:57:00.000-05:002006-06-08T20:57:00.000-05:00Hi Crystal,Thanks for the link, that's a fascinati...Hi Crystal,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the link, that's a fascinating article (the whole issue of the "Dhimmi" churches is one I'm entirely unfamiliar with. I'm going to have to look into it). The whole Gospel of Judas flap, however, must have spooked Benedict, because it doesn't look like Mgsr Brandmuller's efforts panned out. In his <A HREF="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0602148.htm" REL="nofollow">Holy Thursday Homily</A> Pope Benedict said:<BR/><BR/><I>For Judas, only power and success are real; love does not count.... And he is greedy: Money is more important than communion with Jesus, more important than God and his love. He also becomes a liar, a double-crosser who breaks with the truth</I><BR/><BR/>I was a bit surprised by that strongly-expressed traditional take on it, because I had seen the recent trends pretty much the way you had. Most representations of Judas that I had seen in the last couple of decades, from 'Jesus Christ Superstar" to recent biblial scholarship, had tended to portray Judas as a revolutionary zealot who becomes disappointed that Jesus was not the military, Davidic Messiah that he had expected, and who turns Jesus in after some intense, inner moral stuggle (at least that's the way I always portrayed him in the three amateur productions of Godspell I've been in).<BR/><BR/>Whether Judas was a disappointed revolutionary or a greedy double-crosser, I don't think we'll ever know for sure, but the danger arises when Judas becomes the archetype for Judas/Judah/Jew... the epitome of the "perfidious, greedy, money-grubbing Jew".<BR/><BR/>Liam,<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure what Joe will say, but I'd be interested in his take on it too. I think Europeans in general still need to come to terms with the Holocaust. I think anti-semitism is still rife. It is difficult to separate out how much of that is a reaction to Israeli policies (which quite often deserve strong criticism and condemnation), and how much of it is historical. Israel really does seem friendless outside of the USA.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10754406706300818849noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149783379579002492006-06-08T11:16:00.000-05:002006-06-08T11:16:00.000-05:00Judas was always one of the focuses of Christian a...Judas was always one of the focuses of Christian anti-semitism (as if Jesus himself and the rest of the apostles weren't also Jews!). Medieval illustrations of Judas usually show him to have an exaggerated hook nose and wear distinctively Jewish headgear.<BR/><BR/>You are also right about the anti-semetic aspect of the anti-Vatican II wing. When people think of the SSPX, they think of liturgical questions, but they are also a haven for those who can't stand to see the pope reaching out to Jews and even holocaust revisionists. <BR/><BR/>Vatican II was momentous -- I think it's one of the most important turning points of the Church and I feel sure that it was moved by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes it seems that the true spirit of Vatican II has gone out of the Church, but I think that what we are experiencing now is a temporary reaction to great changes. Forty years is nothing in a historical process like this one.<BR/><BR/>Joe may or may not agree with me, but I was shocked at the amount of anti-semtism I found in Spain.Liamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17265036866243982434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26437387.post-1149778452181536562006-06-08T09:54:00.000-05:002006-06-08T09:54:00.000-05:00That's interesting, Jeff. I had no idea that ther...That's interesting, Jeff. I had no idea that there was such a tradition as the burning of Judas. When publicity for the gospel of Judas started, there was a news story about how the Vatican was making an effort to rehabilitate Judas - a good thing, I think - <A HREF="http://www.israpundit.com/archives/2006/01/judas_iscariot.php" REL="nofollow">link</A>crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.com